Episode 196 - Déballe ton Métissage | Unpack your Mixedness
This week I am joined by Marine, host of the Déballe ton Métissage French language podcast translated into "Unpack your Mixedness." In this episode we speak about how multiple cultures and country influences Marine's life and what drove her towards speaking are Mixedness, being actively anti-racist, and her own person decolonization journey
You can follow Marine's podcast on IG @deballe.ton.metissage
Listen to Déballe ton Métissage
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Transcript for the Episode
ManeHustle Media 0:08
Hello, and welcome to the show. My name is Jacque Oh, and you're listening to Militantly Mixed.
Yo, this Rashanii, from the Single Simulcast when I'm not making you laugh, or making a parody songs. I'm kicking back and listening to Militantly Mixed.
ManeHustle Media podcasts are recorded on the ancestral lands of the Chumash Tonga, Karankawa, and Hohokam people, and I wish to pay my respects to the people of those nations both past and present.
Sharmane Fury 0:54
Bonjour cousins. Welcome to Militantly Mixed the podcast about race and identity from the Mixed race perspective.I am your Sir Auntie, Sharmane Fury aka daBlasian Blerd, and this is episode 196. And it's been a week since we released the announcement that we are doing a joint project between Militantly Mixed and Mixed Auntie Confidential TaRessa Stovall and myself, for the first Be Your Mixed Ass Self Anthology. We are open for submissions now through March 15, 2023. And we've already received a lot of interest, a lot of DMs and comments and emails expressing interest in participating, which has been very gratifying for me, because it tells me that this idea that I've had for so long, wasn't just a pipe dream that bit people actually would love to participate in it. And from the responses we've received so far, that seems to be the case, which is very exciting. We've also received a few submissions already, mostly poems, but at least one essay so far. So if you want to learn more about it, before you send in any questions, please make sure you review the MilitantlyMixed.com/BYMASAnthology page. And that's BYMAS as in B, B as in "be," Y, Y as in "your," M as in "Mixed," A as in "ass," S, S as in self. BYMAS Anthology, read through all those guidelines, because most of the questions we've received so far in email, and in DMs and comments have all been addressed. On that page, you will need to also read that page thoroughly to make sure that your what you write qualifies, we are only accepting nonfiction essays and poetry under the theme of "Be Your Mixed Ass Self," for you being your Mixed Ass Self, the self empowerment of of your Mixed identity. So if that's something that fits with what you have already written, but as previously unpublished, you can submit it if it doesn't fit, and you want to write something fresh for it, just make sure you read those guidelines so that it does fit within those categories. For some of the questions that we've received about fiction, or screenplays, or art and photography, those will not be accepted for this run of the "Be Your Mixed Ass Self" Anthology. But that may be something that we do for future iterations of the book because it is the goal that we will release a new anthology every year. That I think that's enough about that I've we've talked about it at length on the show. So you can also check out the announcement episode, which was aired on the 17th of January between TaRessa and myself. Or check out the post that we've done. I've also did an Instagram Live on Saturday, in which I kind of answered some of the questions that we've been receiving. And just kind of continuing to point people over to those guidelines. The other thing that you need to do is you have to go to that website anyway, because that's how you pay your for your submission fee. So please don't skip checking out the guidelines before you make a submission.
And I only have one other announcement and then we'll get into today's episode because today's episode is awesome. In the last week, I've switched podcast hosts platforms. And this is the second time I've switched a podcast platform, a host platform since starting Militantly Mixed and so far, I'm pretty happy. What I've done is I've moved over from a company that had kind of poor customer service. And what they sold me when I bought the package last year wasn't actually available at the level that they sold me. And when I went to express that to the sales agent that I worked with. They kind of basically just shrugged and said, like "Yeah, we just we told you about it, but I didn't mean that it was at this payment level." And I had asked very specific questions that for this rate per month. All this is available like I had it right down, have what I've asked. So I was really upset that I was kind of stuck with, with something that I was less than happy with. I had given them the year to, you know, try to show me that it was worth worth it. But ultimately, I just wasn't happy. So I moved over to Anchor. Now Anchor is a free podcast host service, which I have been reluctant in the past to switch over to. But that's because I have used Anchor in the past before they were bought out by Spotify, when they really didn't have that many bells and whistles yet, and they didn't really track analytics very well. They are now owned by Spotify. So they have upgraded their system and their customer service is just amazing. I did have some trouble transitioning from my old site because the old site was garbage. But someone stayed on with me through a multiple hour transition. To get everything up and running. I've had to contact customer service like four times already, just because of the transition from the other site. Every time they've stayed with me until something got resolved. It's it's really been awesome. So I'm looking forward to the new relationship, and the new opportunities that will come along with the new host. One of those is if you go to Anchor.FM/MilitantlyMixed, you can start leaving voicemails for the show, which if you've been with me for a while, you've heard me talk about this several times. I love getting voicemails and interaction for the show. And there's been times when I got more interaction than kind of now. So with this new anchor system that allows for voicemails that will be more reasonable of a possibility than it has previously. In addition to that, there is an option to subscribe to the show directly and support us that way. I'm going to be setting it at a $2.99 per month level. But I haven't set that up yet. It's going to take me a couple of weeks because I also need to record some exclusive content for the subscribers. So once I get all that done, and uploaded, I'll let y'all know about that as well. But that's just a different way to support the show. We still have Patreon we still have PayPal, but now we will also have anchor if you would like to support the show that and I think that's pretty much it. So without further ado, let's get into today's episode. My guest today is Marine, we had such a wonderful conversation. And I'm really excited about it because it shows it shed light on a perspective that is similar and different to mine. Marine and I are both Mixed Race podcasters in that we are both, we both have a mixed identity and we podcast on the topic of mixedness Marine hosts a French language podcast called Deballe ton Metissage, which is kind of translated into "unpack your mixedness." And she comes from an environment of people that are predominantly Mixed. She's from the Reunion islands in American English, we would pronounce that Reunion Islands, which is a French colony filled with Mixed people. The when the French colonized that island there were not an indigenous population, but they they enslaved people from Madagascar. They brought over indentured servitude, indentured servants from China and India and other places. And then of course, French Europeans. So everybody, there is a mix of all of these things or some combination of these things. And so that is the environment that Marine was raised in. And then she's moved all around the world. She's lived in other French colonies. She's also lived in France. She's lived in China, she lived in the United States, she is interracially married and she has a Mixed Race kid as well. So in addition to her mix, she also has a child with a slightly new mix than her own. So coming from all those different perspectives, and using her voice to share the process of doing active active anti racism work active decolonization work, unpacking your Mixedness on her French language podcast. I just I just think though, the work that she's doing is very vital, because even in the case of Militantly Mixed and other Mixed Race podcasts here in the United States, we all cover a different aspect of Mixed SNESs. I like to talk to other people about their mixedness some of the shows like to talk about a topic. Some of the shows are solo people who just like to talk. So it's a Mixed bag across the board. And every every one of us provides a some form of importance in Mixedness and the way that we're doing it and the fact that we're all using our Mixed voices in the podcasting space. And so, with Marine she had said there was a number of Mixed Race podcasts out there, but none of them were really talking about like, the impact and of unpacking and doing anti-racism work. And as part of the you're Mixed identity. And so with that in mind that I think it's so perfect that I got a chance to speak with Marine. There's a number of things that we talked about some of these things are going to come back and conversations coming up soon, probably on Mixed Auntie Confidential, or if I do panel discussions because yeah, there's just some stuff in this, that we talked about that I'm listing, I was writing side notes going, I need to learn more about this or I need to address this in my own life and things like that. It was such a wonderful conversation. So without further ado, please join me in welcoming our latest cousin to the Militantly Mixed family...
Marine
Marine 10:43
You Hi, I'm Marine. So I'm Mixed. A my nationality is French you can probably hear my accent. So I apologize my French, my French accent.
Sharmane Fury 11:31
You don't have to apologize!
Marine 11:34
So I live on the Tamien Nation. Currently, the Tamien Nation is also known as South Bay in the Silicon Valley. I've been living in the U.S. now for almost seven years. So I'm originally from Reunion Islands, Reunion Islands is an African Island, next to Madagascar, in the Indian Ocean. It's a former slave colony, a French the colony that is now a French state. And this island is very specific because there was no indigenous people on it.
Sharmane Fury 12:15
Yeah.
Marine 12:16
And so all of us were brought, like it was like white, French-European, but first it was prison. Then they started to think oh, maybe we can turn in in some colony for cane sugar and coffee, then Vanilla the slave was brought mostly from Madagascar and Mozambique. Then later on, they realized that to cut cane sugar, you need large knife, you need saber, and they couldn't give it to the enslaved Black people. So, friends also had coloring in India. So they brought a lot of people from India. Then later on during the war for independence in Vietnam and Loas that were there were French colony to lots of people came, and then also from South South China to came so we are very Mixed. So my grandpa is Mixed Chinese and Indian. My grandma's Mixed from Malagasy people, Madagascar, so African, and Indian. And then happens me it was also "half" white. So I am Mixed. I'm from a country that is based on Mixedness, but Mixedness from trauma. Right? So a lot of trauma. And on this island, we don't have much conversation about uniqueness about being Mixed, Metisse because this is something that we were taught, we should be proud. Like, you knows this fake idea like Mixedness will end racism? Oh, we've been there for five centuries. If there's anything it will be done for a while. Yeah. So no...
Sharmane Fury 14:10
Yeah.
Marine 14:11
And this quote, I take it from an Instagram account is also so is that his name? M con metisse, share information information about it. So was also an activist account for Mixedness people, Mixed race people, sorry, but in French. Yes. So I didn't realize my Mixedness for a very long time, because I was living on Reunion island where everybody is like me and my skin color. And so it was kind of a no topic or not really like everything was mentioned, but not like we didn't talk about on an "anti-racist" way.
Sharmane Fury 14:54
Right.
Marine 14:54
Then I moved to Maohi Nui colonized name is French Polynesia, Tahiti. So I moved there. And I spent like this two decades, without realizing anything. Then I start working, I was very colonized very well colonized, like, I was a teacher, teaching French as a Second Language, meaning that I was traveling around the world to teach us poor souls, French language and French culture,
Sharmane Fury 15:26
Oh inn colonized, in French colonized places?
Marine 15:31
So the first one, yes, it was Madagascar. Then I went to Uganda and Uganda was colonized by the British, and then I went to China. So then I moved to the U.S. And it's actually in the U.S. that I realized that I was someone of color that I was someone from the global majority. I never realized that even in China. And it was really arriving in the U.S., or so. I arrived. And I think three months later, a former orange president was elected. And I think this is when I started realizing things, but I didn't have the words because things were new for me. I've been on this dominant white country for only three months. So it took me it took me years, it took me years, it took me a pregnancy. So it was during my pregnancy that I started to realize, oh, my gosh, I've been through so much microaggression here. And I was always angry. So I had childhood trauma, but it was also like, really, I experienced so many microaggression and racism in the U.S., I didn't realize that I was accumulating. And later on, I found okay, so this is what I have. I have a racial trauma based on this is starting therapy and, and there was the assassination, the murder of George Floyd. And this is when it was ... "Okay, now I have to be active!" My baby was two or three months old. I was already in this process. And this was really the element of okay. I'm about to spend many more years in this country. It was it was not supposed to be the case, we were supposed to leave and go back to China. This didn't happen because of the pandemic. Because my baby was born at the beginning of pandemic. And so this is when a lot of things happened. And I realized, oh my gosh, I found myself into anti-racism and social justice journey like and it was like, the more you find out the deeper you go like at first it was like really anti-blackness, then it was realizing the LGBTQ phobia, phobia, and a believes is this can fix and it was going deeper, deeper, deeper, and then I will ask, but "Am I legitimate? To talk about this topic?" Like I am an able-bodied, neurotypical, I haven't been diagnosed with any if I might think that I have ADHD, when being diagnosed,
Sharmane Fury 18:16
Tik Tok makes us all feel like we need a diagnosis.
Marine 18:19
So yes, for now, say I'm neuro-typical. And I am Mixed too. I do not want to talk in the name of Black people, because my experience is not the same. I do not want to talk in the name of East Asian people. Because clearly I didn't experience this racism. I do not want to talk about South Asian people because I am Mixed. And so it was like, "where is my position?" And if I start this activities, where should I start it and from which point of view and so I studying my Instagram account, Marine.Mom.Creole because "Marine," my name, "Mom" because I'm a mother and at first he was showing a lot of books, children books about anti racism and social justice in general. Then "Creole" because Creole is there are many Creoles around the world like Haiti, in Louisiana, but Reunionese people also creole so.
Sharmane Fury 19:17
And the dominant language would be ..
Marine 19:19
Creole
Sharmane Fury 19:20
Creole.
Marine 19:21
Yes.
Sharmane Fury 19:22
Side by side.
Marine 19:23
Yes. So yes, I started this Instagram account and I started talking more and more about Mixedness. And that's when I started. Okay. Let's look for podcasts. And I found out many accounts at podcasts in English and in French, there were a few. But it was mostly about the Mixed Race people experience. That was very interesting and I could relate in some, but there was not much about how to position yourself in the anti-racist journey and on the racial chessboard. Where do we play? What are our privileges? What are our trauma? Where do we stand? Where can we talk? And where do we have to stand back and be a strong ally? Being a support and not taking too much space? When were we legitimate to talk about a topic where we're not? Are we all the same mix? So it depends on which Mixedness you are. Just that kind of thing. So I created a podcast named, Deballe ton Metissage, Unpacked your Mixedness.
Sharmane Fury 20:27
Nice.
Marine 20:29
And so yeah, and so now we've mostly French speaker guests, we talk about it. And how do we stand? How hard it is to find the balance the journey we go through? This is where I am now.
Sharmane Fury 20:46
That's so wonderful. Yeah, I, I think activism is a is kind of a major way in which people are starting to identify their Mixedness in different ways, but also immigrating to a country that you that just has a different thing, the amount of people I speak to who say, they weren't a person of color, or they weren't a member of the global majority until they got here. It's almost everybody I speak to that's not from the United States in particular, because even Canadians view like race and you know, POC and things like that different than, than the United States. But the way that in this country, it's entirely focused on where you sit in your racial class versus anything else. First, it's, it's crazy that you would go your whole life, not technically, having a Mixed identity, not need, I guess, not needing to have one because of the environment that you come up with. And then suddenly, you kind of have to pick one here, because that's the way that's the way they do it here. It's, it's interesting, how fast a learning curve you have to have and perform in. Like, when you get here, like you said, three months, and you're like, "Oh, I'm a whole different type of person here than I expected that I could be." But to be able to enter activism spaces and do work, I think is important, especially as us as Mixed people, and I think we're our lane is, is in all the places. You know, I do think there are places in which we're not, we don't need to be the "loudest voice" Absolutely. looking the way you and I both look, we wouldn't stand on the stage at Black Lives Matter and be the "loudest speaking Black representative" or, you know, we wouldn't be at Stop Asian Hate and be the "loudest speakers" there. But we could be there in support. And so a lot of the work that I like to try to do is in the Solidarity Movement space, because then I can say, "Hey, I'm, I can be a conduit between both of these organizations" or something like that. And I can say, How I maneuver within both of these issues as as a Mixed person, myself, but you have your intersectionality comes a lot, you have a lot more because you've lived in multiple countries. So you have multiple different perspectives, not to mention, you come from a place where everybody is Mixed. So you don't have to talk about being Mixed. Like there's a lot going on, I would love to see like how this work even happens in such a short amount of time, because seven years is not really a long time to be to hit that learning curve to you know, to be able to talk about this stuff. Well. And then as a parent you're facing "How do I address this with my own child who's going to grow up in a country different than I grew up?" We got all kinds of stuff.
Marine 23:38
Yes. And the thing is, even if I'm French, I didn't grew up in the EU on the European continent, right? I only spent two years actually in France, European. So it was like, I almost never spend time in a white dominant country. So I'm sure what Mixed Race living on France experience is different. And they probably had this awakening way before me because I was in French Polynesia, Maohi Nui and in Reunions Islands, so two tropical
Sharmane Fury 24:19
Yeah different types of brown in both places. So you don't necessarily be there's no reason you would be more aware of how white supremacy and whiteness impacts you. If you don't see them as much, but they're impacting you because it's colonization.
Marine 24:36
Yes, it was like the it was very hard to say like the majority was "Minorized."
Sharmane Fury 24:48
Right.
Marine 24:48
Like, yeah, like it was a majority but still, we will still be put at the second class. Yeah, second class compared to the minority. The white minority will always been the first class, it's a little bit different for Maohi Nui because they have a strong independent political party who had been who had won the elections a couple of times to three last decades. So it's a little bit different. And the same. So it's different from Reunion (islands). And also Maohi Nui is an independent country, but still attached to France. So they have French passport, but they have their own territorial President and Senate compared to being an island that is a state.
Sharmane Fury 25:40
Hm mm okay, so more privileges then?
Marine 25:41
So it's very different. So, I will say that culturally, one is safe, has more advantage, because has more independence than the other side is totally like, absorb, as my France, it's a little bit complicated. And the distance between the two countries make it the plane tickets are more expensive. So you don't have many white people moving to French Polynesia Maohi Nui. Because it's expensive compared to Reunion Island, and it's a 10 hour flight, why it's about 20 hours to go. So it's so it's, it's very different. And so we starting to see a massive gentrification in Reunion Island.
Sharmane Fury 26:31
Because it's only the rich rich that can go to French Poly nesia
Marine 27:49
Yes so not especially the rich rich because the extremely rich, they will go to French by noon. They have the money, you go to Bora Bora. And it's fine. And Reunion Islands its just like it's closer so they can still fly back to France twice a year. And you still have the tropical weather. Because it's very south. But yeah, a lot of unemployment. It's about 45%. So it's a lot gentrification like all the West, who has not as much rain. And when there is a hurricane because they're hurricane like from January to March, December I will say December to February, lots of hurricanes, but it touched especially like the East Coast and not the West Coast. And you can also see them in the employment edge, mostly Creoles it's hard to find a job so you cannot pay rent and rent and are getting higher and higher in the good places where the bars or clubs and all this kind of thing start moving to the west and not to the east. So the poorest population will be south or east and the wealthiest will be on the west of the island. So yeah.
Sharmane Fury 27:46
When you when you left for the first time, was your expectation that you would go back like do you do you have an idea of going back there? Or do you you said you were spending like a couple years at a time in each country? Was it ever thought that you were going to be gone that long?
Marine 28:05
So I my family moved when I was 14 years old. So it was right before, right during my teenage identity. So it's very funny because I I cook, I eat, I speak Creole. But I also when I also think home I think about Tahiti, because I dance did all my high school did my bachelor degree there.
Sharmane Fury 28:31
That makes sense.
Marine 28:31
So it's it's a little bit here. So when, like on even on my Insta still a podcast, I also advocate a lot for French Polynesia. Even if when I write things in Creole, of course I was. It's more like about being an island because they think I am not legitimate to talk about what's going on in Tahiti and Tahiti Nui. But it's yeah complicated.
Sharmane Fury 28:55
That's such an interesting part. I think of what we deal with as Mixed, people like you, I came into my identity more strongly between 15 and above, because that's the time you're trying to figure out who you are right? You're a teenager, you have to figure out which group you want to hang out with and what you know, what makes you popular versus not popular. And so even though I was born in a different place, I identify with being from Long Beach because that's where I was at that time. And so in that the kind of culture that I grew up the very specific type of Black environment that I was in. Those are the kinds of Black people that to this day, I'm more comfortable around than white people than Asian people than anybody else, even people that I'm sharing Mixed with, because it's a very specific type of culture that comes from that place. So in that respect, I feel like it's fair to speak on and represent what was happening in that place where you were at at that time, that's when you were coming alive, right? That's when you are waking up to things. But I also understand that because you're not from there and because you're Mixed and you're not sharing necessarily the same ethnic makeup that you're like is it isn't my place? But you have a really unique perspective, because that's when you paid attention. Like, that's when you started to pay more attention. That's the time period. So like, you probably know as much or a decent amount to be able to engage on that topic. But I feel like no matter what we say, as Mixed people, there's always a, there's always a caveat, there's always an asterisk, oh, but they're Mixed, or, you know, they're, they're not they didn't grow up here. Some there's something telling people, I can tell part of this story, but I can't, I can't tell the whole story. Or take what I say, with a grain of salt, because you know, I'm only Mixed or something, which is a tough thing for us to have to put a caveat on everything. So I like to say that we can take up space in a lot of places in which our Mix. We share identity, culture, something. But as a person who moves around from different countries, I think part of that country gets in there too, too. It's now a part of your story. It's a part of your DNA, I think now. So like, I feel like you should be able to talk about it. But also understanding that you you want to be mindful of what the people that are native to those areas actually experience. How do you feel having had a child here in the United States? Like, do you feel like United States is going to be more of a permanent location for you now and it's so you're raising Americans, third culture child.
Marine 31:36
My smile?
Sharmane Fury 31:39
Like I can see it, like it is building. It's like alright, let's get into this.
Marine 31:43
So this child is American. And we at first we didn't think about staying much in the U.S. This wasn't my my goal. I wanted to travel back, I fell in love with China. And for two years, I tried hard to go back, but it was during the pandemic, it was extremely hard. So 2020 and 2021. The border was too close. So I decided, okay, let's just stop it. And we are just going to stay here. They do the work. And my husband loves his jobs here. So we decided, okay, maybe it's time for me to envision myself in some way. So we're not planning on going back to France. For many reasons, first of all, I feel it's weird, but I've been actually safer in the US than in France. In the US, the conversation about social justice is open. Like we can talk about race, we can talk about ableism we can talk about LGBTQ phobia, phobia. It's complicated, but we are open to discuss it. In France. It's not absolutely not like, they changing they rewrite the Constitution. But they rewrite it. Just to erase the word "race" think there's no race, there's just a human race. So we don't talk about this topic. Yeah, I was. So they erase it from all the Constitution. Could you imagine? So no we're not going back. And if we have to, we're not going back to the European continent. It will be maybe Reunion Island, maybe another overseas state, but not because France has many.
Sharmane Fury 33:26
Yes.
Marine 33:27
But we are not going back to. And so yes, so I'm now envisioning myself more and more in the US. I know my privileges to and then having a child he is I think it would have been complicated anywhere because it's an anti-religion, but also we so I am cisgendered straight. My husband is too but we are raising her child is a non-binary and non-gender way. So we don't use gender we use gender neutral pronouns like when you they/them, because I watch I don't know when you ask them Are you a girl or boy they say, "I'm the best doggy" There is one thing that I'm sure is this child is not a doggy. So let's keep going for they/them. And we'll see later on so yeah, so then we soon we'll see but we're just deducting and it's hard for people to understand this pronoun thing.
Sharmane Fury 34:30
Yeah, I know it's so it's so weird because they'll actually use they/them and third person to explain why they don't understand how to use it. What they're using it correctly. While they're saying that they don't think it's a real, it's amaze... I can't
Marine 34:47
It exist in English. It doesn't exist in French.
Sharmane Fury 34:50
That's what I was about to ask the way that gender roles and gendered pronoun or gendered words let's say just words, how how does that differ? For, like, where in the different places that you've been, you know, where you grew up to now, it being so prevalent here in the United States, like was such a major focus? How is it different?
Marine 35:12
It's very different because us you have, it's mostly just the pronouns. But French is like Spanish, everything has a gender table is feminine. Everything has a gender. So it's very hard for them. And there was no such thing as talking about an individual that you don't know, using they/them. It's gonna be masculine, mostly defaults to masculine. So a default is mascot. So it's very complicated. And so we create Mixed, like we use, the masculine is "il," and the feminine is "elle" and put it together, il and elle means ilelle . And instead of using feminine or masculine adjectives, just use a neutral one. Like instead of saying, courageous, because courageous in French is casual collages. So it has feminine masking, use "brave" brave, because there's no such place. And yes, and then it's hard for French people, they are not very comfortable with it. So they strongly opposed. So it's very hard. Why? In the US, I think the conversation is starting. So we yeah, and so I think it's important for me to say this, because how did I ended up doing this? Because my anti-racist journey, learn me to decolonial journey. And when you start looking into this, you're like, Okay, where does this come from? Whereas, oh my gosh, okay, so this is actually from Europe from Christians and missionary. And so then you start going, okay, so but what was my ancestor using? And you start looking looking looking everywhere. And so, then you realize, okay, so let's send a couple of things. So yes, the way we see neuro-divergent people, the way we see genders, everything is from colonization, not saying like, all everything from missionaries, some cultures had already binaries, some has not. But it was very, very important for me to start this decolonization journey, especially like, when I start to realize, Okay, I will colonize it too. I'm a settler here. So I need to learn more about indigenous cultures, and the one that I'm living in the one I was living, and it's conflicts that you start with, like, oh, oh, and then you start changing everything.
Sharmane Fury 37:42
So many different level, it makes it it makes it tough to, but you want to be mindful and you actively try and then you're, you're mindful and you pick up all these different things. I'm thinking about LGBTQ+, I'm thinking about unseeded territories, I'm thinking about this, I'm thinking about that. And then one random thing that you have no, like you wasn't on your lens at all. And it's just like a word that we use in English or something. And you'll find out that the origin of that word is absolutely racist, or absolutely called colonalist, or whatever, American imperialism does not get discussed about as heavily here in this country as we need to. And then you're just like, it's a constant battle to try to do that. So it's knowing that you're, you're entering into that, that workload with your child. Like, I think it's amazing to start from scratch with the idea of allow that child to tell you who they are, when they tell you versus starting now and having to fix it later. I think that is such an amazing thing. And so much so much like the benefits, I think that your child is going to experience down the line. Not that I think there'll be pressures
Marine 38:53
I hope
Sharmane Fury 38:54
There's gonna be pressures, but I hope that they also see like how, how much freer, they'll get a chance, hopefully, they'll get a chance to be with that. So I think that's amazing. And knowing that you have so many languages in your head having to fix gendered language like for you more so than like, and just as an English speaker here in the states like you, you have so many of gendered words going on.
Marine 39:23
And on my Instagram account, I always publish in two languages, French and English. And so it's funny because the thing that I would say in French wouldn't be the exact same in English, right? And so yeah, so when it's very funny to see like, Okay, this is not the same thing and write the post and it's a little bit different, right?
Sharmane Fury 39:44
Yeah, cuz that's the other thing is, I don't know I'm only speaking as an English speaker. I feel like English speakers believe that there is a precise translation of every language into English, where English is considered an obvious default in their mind. so that if you can't say like I always found it was very frustrating that even though I was born in America, and English was my first language, there's some things that I say or do in Japanese, because that's what I did at home. So if I say it in front of an English speaker, and they're like, Well, what does that mean? And, and I'll say, "there's really no way to translate it". Or the best that I can say is, it's like doing that, you know, it's like this. But then if they meet another Japanese person who says the same thing, that Japanese person is gonna explain it totally different in English the way that I do, and then they'll come back to me and be like, that's not what so and so told me, that's not what that means. And I was like, Well, what they're what they describe as correct too like, it's because it has no translation. So to sit there and work like, it's very frustrating, even being born here is very frustrating dealing with English speakers because of that belief that the English language is the default, and therefore everything translates correctly into addition, that way, plus the context, like you have to put context that exists here, that doesn't exist in other countries, or vice versa. When you're trying to explain a topic, especially something as heavy as anti-racism, if your culture doesn't talk about race, and what context you put it in to explain it to people?
Marine 41:15
So true, and especially like we're gonna use the English word. Like, there's no such thing. There's no word in France to talk about being colorblind, or digital blackface. So it's very complicated. And so this is also something that the racist use is like, oh, that's an American thing. They use this American was a Yeah, but actually, we have if you want to talk about "blackface," there's a French name is “barbouillage.” But if we say, “barbouillage,” we almost no one understand when we say blackface, everybody get it. So it's, it's, I think France is just maybe a decade a little bit back, and it's getting faster. So social media can have bad influence, but can also good in France. And now, information travels so fast. So now we are this, this knowledge different that we have between like someone who will publish a Ph.D, and we're starting to talk about in the US, and we'll take like 20 years before being translated in French. Now, you will have activists that speak both languages that will immediately translate some part of it, create post or make a reel, a Tiktok video or whatever. And then the information travels faster. So I think we are, maybe it's getting too fast. And people are, it's very hard to digest everything. Like it took me two years before actually decide, okay, let's start this podcast. I think I've done enough homework, I will always learn not that I'm know everything, but I will always learn. But maybe now, I know where I want to talk from what I want to acknowledge. And things that I've learned for many other activists like I've never felt like if I write it, but if I do a podcast like to acknowledge where I am recording where I am, it's thanks to yours, does it? Oh, this is so true. That I should say at the end of my podcast, this podcast was recorded on the Tamien nation, I'm very grateful and kind of things like. So yeah, I'm sure things would change. And I was still learning from others.
Sharmane Fury 43:26
Yeah, the way I the way I started to do it was I went to an event in Seattle, called the Geek Girl Con, it's like a comic book and sci fi in science conference for girls like 13 to adulthood. And there was like NASA scientists and women's speakers and stuff like that, it was a really, really fun event. And before every panel, they mentioned, the territory that they were living on. And then in then, in some cases, depending on what panel like went to take a deep dive into it a little bit more. And so the more I hit, by the time I ended it, I was, like, I need to understand where I'm at, like, you know, I'm a Brown person who feels like a second class citizen of my own country, but I, it's only my own country, because I was born here, because some white people "settled," and some people, you know, and some Black people were enslaved, and, you know, some Air Force guys went to other countries and brought their wives here, and if not, for all of those things, this would not be my country. So yeah, that's why I started to do it. And as I'm happy to hear that, it actually like, you know, someone would hear it too, and that it would make that kind of impact. And I think it's a good work in in activism and anti anti-racism work, to make yourself aware and be so mindful that if I travel and record, I look up or did I just travel so that I can make sure that I mentioned it there if I'm recording in that location to to be honest. And then I record with other people and they they're in different to refers to so I have to pull that up for themselves. That's nice to hear that. It does get to a place though, like I said, you know, so many things, it once you wake up, once you be, you know, become when
Marine 45:15
You get out of the fog.
Sharmane Fury 45:16
Yeah, we'll get you get out of the fog when you see it everywhere like there's there's no place you can't see it your iPhone is made in, you know, factories where low labor, low wages and heavy labor and children you know things like that you have to be aware of so many things, that it can be daunting. So in terms of getting yourself to a point like you and I got to where we decided to make a podcast, we really had to pick a thing and be like, okay, sometimes we'll mention these other things. But here's the main focus, because if we couldn't, if we couldn't find that one main focus, we would not have been able to get to the place that we got in recording our shows, finally, I think because it took me a couple of years as well, like I had the website, the domain, the social media handles, I had all of that stuff for years, before I finally press record, because I had to fight that imposter syndrome. And so the question for myself, can I talk about this topic? You know, like, You've been saying throughout this recording as well, am I "allowed" to be the person that talks about this and, and I think as long as you're acknowledging your perspective, and acknowledging when you learn something, because if I listened back to early episodes, I can hear myself go from a non-informed, possibly problematic stance to hearing a new bit of information, internalizing it, and starting to use it correctly later, you know, doing the right thing later. And that's happened so many times for me over the last four years. So I feel a lot stronger of a person a lot better of a podcaster because but yeah, and so yeah, until you press record, you can't figure out where your baseline is, you know,
Marine 47:03
Yeah. And it takes some time, then, well, always learning like I, okay, or chief, like so many post archive that I did, like two years ago, like, No, I don't align with this anymore. Like, because I'm like, I used to say my child was white passing.
Sharmane Fury 47:19
Okay.
Marine 47:19
And now, I'm not saying this anymore. Because I think that I'm putting my vision on them. And this is not fair as the same that I was putting a gender on them for one year. Until realizing Okay, no, I'm forcing what I see and what I've learned that might be wrong on to them. And this is not fair. So they will racially identify the way they want. Of course, there's a limit. If they come and say, I'm Black, I'll be like, ehhhh talk about this.
Sharmane Fury 47:53
So that's another complicated thing, too. As as a person who looks like I look and identifies as Black, when you're talking about Black in America, it means something different than when you're talking about global blackness, right? So you can acknowledge in that case, in educating them and like ethnic, ethnically, you do include people from Africa who were Black. But now looking the way you look, you can you're gonna have to clarify that that's an ethnic identity. And you know, but then we have, yes, when we say Black here we also mean Back culture, American Black American culture. So it's always complicated with a Mixed Black person here in the United States, in a way that I don't know that I have enough education yet on. Even though I've spoken to a lot of Mixed Black people around the world. Us coming from different places, I can't say that it's exactly the same of a foggy area for say, someone born in France or England or Spain that has Black heritage, you know, African heritage versus American Black being very different. So I mean, yeah, like, we'll see what happens, but I imagine your child at some point, will have questions about the Black identity. And if they grow up around Black people.
Marine 49:05
And we wouldn't talk would talk like we're not African American, we are not really African European. Yeah, we are specific. So if you want to use a Creole, if you want to ensure this child is not even three, later on, we will find new words, we will have more research, and we will learn from each other. I'm sure we'll learn more from them. And they will learn from me because my knowledge was a little bit old. But yeah, so we'll we'll see, but I want to stop forcing identity and labels on this child. Because I think they should define themselves the way they want. And now we'll give them all the knowledge all the labels and they can see from where they stand and how they identify themselves, which one they want to take. And yeah.
Sharmane Fury 49:58
So in when you were using The term white passing for your child? Was it learning about the in the history of enslavement? And the term "white passing" that just did that? Or was it more about just the decolonization in general that you were getting to that versus using a term like nowadays? People are trying to use, like "white assumed" or you know things like that.
Marine 50:20
Yes. So it was because I think this was the word that is still used in French, we don't use yet "white assume" or "white presenting" was white passing. And the definition was kind of what my child might look like, they are blond, white, with blue eyes. That was a shock for me. When I hold this baby, it was really a shock, because I didn't expect this. And so I can, oh, my gosh, people won't relate us to each other. What about if people ask if I'm denying? What about if some were going to I don't know, some state and they think that kidnappings this child and this child is mine. So yes, at this was speak French, so maybe, okay, now that might be related. But there was something frightening me. So I needed to give an explanation and a racial identification to my child, but it was from my perspective. And so even "white assumed" that will be probably better than "white passing". I think this still would be me giving it so I.
Sharmane Fury 51:29
Maybe. But there's also a context, I think you explained which was probably tougher on a three year old than, you know, maybe later on, which is that the outside people, the way they treat you based off of their assumption, yes will impact your identity. Even if you don't want that to be the case. Like we talk a lot about that need for validation that a lot of Mixed people have have where you know, someone who looks like me who Black people can Black Americans can tell I'm Black, but they obviously know I'm Mixed with something else. A Black person will ask me what I'm Mixed with, acknowledging they see that I'm Black, but what's the other stuff? Whereas a white person would say "what are you" meaning you are an other from me. So in that case, I think in however, we can break it down to a three year old, maybe later on in life a little bit easier to be able to say that the way you're treated on the outside of the way people assume you are on the outside will have an impact on your identity, whether you're actively allowing it to or not, it just will. And in that case, I think as soon I'm trying to get to the place where assumed as the word is the most, I'm still kind of doing the strikes between because some people use white presenting or white appearing, white presumed, white assumed,
Marine 52:46
Yeah, and maybe my child will, will make it on purpose to be white presenting. That's why for now, I will give them all the vocabulary. And I know, I know people assume that my child is white. And I'm not forcing anyone to and I'm not saying that anyone is wrong or right. This child we have many, many privileges. Yeah, blonde, blue eyes, white. Oh, yeah, they will have way more than me. Because I am the representation of the Mixed race. Like I am Brown, light skin. I have straight hair. My future looks kind of European so yeah, I know I'm you
Sharmane Fury 53:31
To me, you look like all the things that you describe it all the people that ended up on that island. You will like if you turn it this way, I see one if you turn your head this way. Yeah, the other like you, you, you look as much a part of the fabric of all the people that ended up there as anybody I have ever seen.
Marine 53:50
So yeah, so I know like to be fetishize. Yes. I'll be definitely like in this arrow and the acceptable version of everything, like see acceptable South Asian, acceptable Black version, because obviously, they can't see the white. They just don't know then depending on which group I am, they don't really see, which are the global majority groups. And I'm from and I'm actually from many of them. So yeah, yeah.
Sharmane Fury 54:29
I think that's, it's an amazing way to raise your child, I'm sure it's filled with a lot of challenges, but I'm, I'm so excited to like, find out like 15 years, how they'll identify based off of all that what you're giving them, you know, because one of the things I talked about on the show a lot is like I have biracial parents, both of my parents are Mixed, but they didn't prepare me to be a Mixed person. They prepared me to be a Black person that was light skinned, and also Asian, you know, so I was never, there wasn't the explanation of like your Mixed and you're gonna sit in ambiguity across all these different people wasn't like that it was just like we live in a Black neighborhood, you're Black. But then also you gotta Japanese family, you gotta Japanese in grandma. So, you know, I would say "Weekend Japanese" because I didn't know how to tell people like, every single day I'm all these things. I have a British grandmother who lived with those us, I had a Japanese grandma who I lived with, I had a Black that, you know, I have a white and Japanese mom who lives in Blackness. So with all these things happening, they did not prepare me to how to talk about it. I had to learn outside, I had to learn as an adult, how to talk about it. And with you giving your child so many ways to be able to talk about it throughout their life, I'm sure that they're going to be just a Mixed warrior. By the time they're older, they'll be able to talk about it. Hopefully very helpful healthy, so I'm excited too.
Marine 56:00
I hope so. And their parents are behind them.
Sharmane Fury 56:04
Yeah. No, that's amazing. Because our mixes are different, and we experienced different things. Sometimes it's very difficult. Sometimes it can be very heavy. But what is something that you really enjoy? What do you love most about being a Mixed person?
Marine 56:22
I think what I like is knowing so many cultures, and the form of all of them, and to have the knowledge of all of them. Like sure we so we celebrate Holi, Diwali but also we will eat dumplings for Lunar New Year. And we will do not really Christmas in the Christian way but still celebrating Christmas. And so we are trying to learn more about Kwanzaa, Kwanzaa. It's really about African American, and we're not but like getting more into the culture. Because now that we're living in the U.S, I felt at first, it was hard. It was a lot of imposter syndrome. And now I found that it's something that it's the power because now I know how important it is to know yourself to be able to stand properly. And to know, in fact, where you talk from to home. And to be more fair, in your judgment, or the way you advocate for something.
Sharmane Fury 57:36
Yeah, earlier and you said it a couple of times. And I wrote it down because I like it so much is you were talking about like where you fit on the anti-racist chessboard? Do you have an idea of what that is like, in terms of breaking down the pieces of a chess board of what the stages of anti-racism work is on the anti-racist chess board?
Marine 57:57
I think personally, and I cannot speak for everybody. And for my Mixed Race identity, I stand as an accomplice more than ally now, a complete to anti-Asian racism and anti-Blackness. And I think like, I will say, I will be on the chessboard like more like a tower. Like, I'm not in the front. Not especially like the Queen or the Queen, but more like on the not as strong as the horse. But like, on the side and using my whiteness when needed. When I feel when I feel okay, this is not okay. And this person, I don't want to put racial mental load on this person, it's time to use my whiteness. So using it and knowing where, where and when to use it. Based on of course asking, "Do you want me to intervene or not?" If I feel like this doesn't expose I'm just intervene right away? Yeah. And yeah, would be like this, like, knowing where I stand and waiting to be used, if I need to be used. And yeah.
Sharmane Fury 59:11
Yeah, I probably should have asked that question earlier, but it's been sitting in my head this whole time. I want to talk about his answers. Well, thank you so much for joining me in this conversation. I want for those people who listen to the show because I do have some French and Belgian followers at least what how do they find your podcast if they want to listen to your French language podcast?
Marine 59:34
So the podcast is Deballe to Metissage, D-e-b-e-l-l-e t-o-n M-e-t-i-s-s-e. And they can find it on mainstream ones like Deezer, Spotify, Google podcasts, Apple podcast, and also on YouTube because they have subtitles for people who want to have access to podcasts without hearing it. And so you can find it and also on Instagram, this one or @Marine.Mom.Kreol with a K of Marine dot mom M-O-M kreol K-R-E-O-L. And it's in French and English, and then sometimes in Creole.
Sharmane Fury 1:00:19
I think it's, it's amazing especially when you know you're in such a small minority of the kind of podcasts like, you know, there's you said there weren't any French language ones really happening and so you tried to get in there. I think it's really important for the more of us to be able to do that in the places that we can and will be so much more helpful in creating language in French about the stuff in anti racism that's not being addressed yet. You're definitely going to be a big part of that. I think so. I appreciate that you do.
Marine 1:00:51
Thank you. There are just went on they are French podcast about Mixedness is just a mine is very specific about where do we stand against in, in the anti-racist? Fight! Yeah.
Sharmane Fury 1:01:08
Yeah, no, I appreciate that. That's, I think I mean, that's an important aspect of this because the same with you know, here, there's tons of English speaking mixed race podcasts, but I think my lane my personal lane is to be able to talk from both an experienced side and an activist or in my case, elevation is the position that I hold an elevator without those two things. I don't make sense for myself, I guess. So and having something like that, in the French language, I think is also very important. Because here in the United States, we don't think about, France is fancy here. They're not thought about as a colonizer here, you know, maybe in New Orleans, but, you know, here, they're not really thought about that way. And they are out there doing the same thing. They're doing like,
Marine 1:01:52
Oh, yes, yes. And France was one of the colonizer country on this land, as well.
Sharmane Fury 1:01:59
Yeah, it's just that's faded in a lot of people's memory. But again, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it.
Marine 1:02:06
Thank you so much for inviting me. Thank you for creating this podcast and for educating us and elevating us.
Sharmane Fury 1:02:18
Militantly Mixed as a ManeHustle media podcast produced and hosted by me Sharmane Fury. Music is by David Brogan, the One. You can follow us on social media on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook @MilitantlyMixed if you'd like to become a sponsor of Militantly Mixed please go to patreon.com/MilitantlyMixed for monthly sponsorship or paypal.me/MilitantlyMixed for a one time only donation. And if you like what you hear on Militantly Mixed, please subscribe rate, and review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. And don't forget to be your Mixed Ass Self! ManeHustle Media, turn your side hustle into your main hustle.
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